idea for new game style

[Zugswang]

[Teachme2play]

I suppose making the game choose the number of counters to put at random would be a bad idea. Example - if 6 counters are to be placed ipuissance4d could put them like this making the second player unable to make any move:


I suggest making decision about the number of the mentioned counters like 3, 4, 5. Notice, that whenever a color has more than two counters, such situations may occur:



or:



I'm trying to say, that the more counters drop, the bigger chance of winning by luck is (there are many more positions that favourize one of the players).

PS. When will the server be ready?

[Zugswang]

No the pieces aren't dropped randomly. The position is chosen randomly from a list of pre-programmed positions. There might be 500 positions for it to choose from, and each game it will choose 1 of the 500. The examples I gave would be just a few of the positions it could use.

[Wernight]

What he meant by "random" start was that every start has some counters arranged so that the game cannot be won quickly by either parties. This includes every possible combination of the perfect moves, and a whole lot more bunch of moves that just lead to draw if both players play perfect.

[Teachme2play]

OK, you guys talked me in, but remember that there is a lot more combinations, than 500 even not concerning what I've mentioned above. ONLY for 3-counter positions, there are 7x7x7=343 possible combinations. 343 - perfect start positions will give at least 300 games to estabilish! And somebody will have to set 'em up. Of course we can help, but it's still ~100. Not mentioning positions with >3 counters - which are of greater number. Unless, Wernight, you can arrange ipuissance to do that for us, or the positions are to be downloaded from somewhere.

[Wernight]

They sure can be generated, and it's not even that hard.
Generating all possibilities that don't give a sure win for the first 20 moves is easy, but to go up to every possible game end is very hard/takes long time. Yes the algorithm could be improved but that takes times and would only work for some rules not all.

One question: This could be for any rule, should it be only for "Classic"?

[Zugswang]

It's not really that many combinations, because we're not choosing just any moves. We're predefining positions that we already think are difficult. Like the ones I listed, they are pretty difficult. There aren't so many difficult positions, 500 is probably too high of an estimate if anything. We're putting the positions in a hat, and the computer will simply pick from the hat.

It can only be done for solved games. Classic is solved, and so is 2-move-turn. So maybe it would be good for 2-move-turn also. The reason the games have to be solved is, the answer to the puzzle and who's supposed to win is supposed to be certain. If the game isn't solved, then you're just taking people's word for it when they submit a position for the site to use. For instance, the positions I gave you, you can double-check them with a program and you'll find that I was right when i said "white can win" or "black can win". But if Classic weren't already solved, then how would you know if I was right?

Oh and i just thought of a way to improve the idea a little. The computer shouldn't tell you whether you can win the game or whether it's a draw. It should just set up the position and let you play, and leave it to you to figure out if you can win or get a draw. This way it will be harder. Usually it's signficantly easier to guess the right move if you already know that the most you can get is a draw. Same when you already know you can win. But if you don't know, then you might have to decide between an offensive move and a defensive move, and only one of the moves might be correct. Plus it will be harder for your opponent, because whichever move you do choose, he might not know if you made the right move, and his move will be a difficult decision also. So the entire game will be hard for both players, and for good players the game would be fun again, hehe. So many good players have already quit playing forever, we need to do this before more quit lol.

[Moiwouam]

I just want to warn about puzzle, if the number of puzzle is too limit (under 100 or 200), the player who will win will be only the most assiduous player at puzzle game, by memory and not by reflexion skill, especially with time limit.
Si quelqu'un a compris ce que j'ai dis, félicitations

[Teachme2play]

I agree, there should be so much positions, so that no-one could be able to remember all o' them. Otherwise it will become similar to classic - memory wins, not skills.

[Zugswang]

Yes we'll absolutely try to put as many as possible, but it's impossible to prevent people from using memory. There are only a limited number of difficult positions. Once someone remembers all of them, then the new positions will be easy anyway and they won't require much skill. Puzzle mode can only be enjoyed for a limited time, not forever, but the same goes with regular Classic. Once you remember the right moves, the game gets old. That doesn't mean it's a bad game, it just means it's not a lifetime hobby. Random Start mode can be enjoyed longer than Puzzle because even after you remember the right moves, you can still try to beat your opponent who might not know the right moves. Classic would be a lot more boring for a good player if he never had the chance to be Black. He might already be perfect with White, but it's still fun to try to win with Black. Winning with White is boring, but winning with Black is always fun . Puzzle mode and Random Start mode will temporarily make "White" (whichever color is supposed to win) fun again for good players. But you can't make the fun last forever, no matter how hard you try, because that's the nature of the game itself. No matter how many great variants are introduced, the game will never be as good as Chess