Project connect

Discuss whatever!

Answer to task #6

Postby Teachme2play » 07 Dec 2007, 21:59

Hmm. It looks easy but it isn't, although I've witnessed it many times. Blak can achieve a draw, that's for sure. I could look up mustrum, but it wouldn't be fun. So let's see:
A1, B1, C3 and F3 don't change anything, because red can respond with G1, returning to perfect play.
D2 is also bad because of Red D3 - back to "normal".
And, finally, E1 loses, because it is also a return to perfect play (like 1. D1- C1, 2. F1-E1, 3. C2-F2).
So the last remaining answer is G1. I suppose it's a draw game.
This is 10% luck,
20% skill,
15% concentrated power of will,
5% pleasure,
50% pain,
and a 100% reason to remember the game!
User avatar
Teachme2play
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 82
Joined: 04 Mar 2007, 13:48
Location: Poland

Re: Project connect

Postby Zugswang » 07 Dec 2007, 22:49

heh yup g1 for draw.
[the nice point is that i tried mustrum on it, and it made a mistake later, so i won it finally :) I wonder if you have any objections to me answering by editing your posts - it saves a lot of space - Teachme2play]
I didn't realize it was so easy to use process of elimination on this one, i remembered this being harder. Here are some more off the top of my head. By the way, my levels will be: easy, medium, hard, and very hard. I'll mark errors with a ? but often I won't mark them or i won't mark all of them, depending on if i think it gives a clue. By the way teach, when you said "ignore the highlight" that made it obvious that D was the correct move, that's the first place i checked lol.

Zugswang #2: Hard
1) D1-A1
2) C1-A2
3) F1-E1
3) F2-C2
4) __
Where should Red move? What will the result be?
Image

[My first idea was F3, but after a while I've decided D2 would be better. Nothing more than a draw.
Zugswang #3: Hard
1) D1-C1
2) G1-B1
3) E1-F1
3) B2-F2
4)__
Where should Red move? What will the result be?
Image

[I suppose C2 reaches draw, and maybe B3 also. E2 wins (for red).]
Zugswang #4: Hard
1) D1-C1
2) G1-B1
3) E1-F1
4) F2-D2
Where should Red move? What will the result be?
Image

That's easy - red perfect play - D3 is very seducive, but B2 comes first.

Zugswang #5: Medium
1) D1-C1
2) C2?-C3
3) E1- __
Black can stop Red from winning. Where should Black move? What will the result be?
Image

Enjoy
fstal86 aka div0ckrehnee aka entr0py aka Frank :)
User avatar
Zugswang
Senior Member
Senior Member
 
Posts: 43
Joined: 02 Jan 2007, 06:07
Location: near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Project connect

Postby Teachme2play » 10 Dec 2007, 17:07

I've made some more: two first are your positions, but more advanced, third is mine. The moving player can reach draw - how?

Task #7

1. D1 - C1
2. F1 - F2
3. C2? - G1!
4. C3 - C4
5. G2 - F3
6. F4 - C5
7. C6 - D2
8. F5 - D3
9. D4 - G3

Image

Task #8

1. D1 - A1
2. C1 - B1
3. F1 - E1
4. F2 - C2
5. F3 - F4
6. C3 - D2
7. B2 - D3
8. D4 - G1
9. E2 - D5

Image

Task #9

1. E1? - B1?
2. F1 - D1
3. D2 - D3
4. D4 - F2
5. A1 - B2
6. D5 - B3
7. B4
Image
[img=http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/1195/draw3ck4.th.png]
This is 10% luck,
20% skill,
15% concentrated power of will,
5% pleasure,
50% pain,
and a 100% reason to remember the game!
User avatar
Teachme2play
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 82
Joined: 04 Mar 2007, 13:48
Location: Poland

Re: Project connect

Postby Zugswang » 10 Dec 2007, 20:47

the nice point is that i tried mustrum on it, and it made a mistake later, so i won it finally :)

Yes most programs are terribly slow with non-standard positions. And if you don't let them finish thinking, they'll often make an error. Before I had vianiato, i would test moves like that on mustrum and titot, and i think mustrum took 15 minutes to solve that problem for G1. Vianiato gets it in like 10 seconds, lol.

I wonder if you have any objections to me answering by editing your posts

Not at all, feel free. As long as u don't change my words to say things like "i like to drink cow saliva", it's fine :D
[How about "I like to eat bread with wasabi on it"? :) Hell, I don't feel better after that - Teach.

My first idea was F3, but after a while I've decided D2 would be better. Nothing more than a draw.

This was probably the hardest one. Believe it or not, this is a "standard" position (though hardly ever seen in a regular game); Red made no errors, so Red can win. Red wins with B2. In my prime i'd be able to explain why, but now i don't know exactly why it's B2, except that Vianiato says so lol. I suppose Red has a combination of a potential horizontal and a diagonal. If Black responds F3, i'm guessing Red can go C3. If Black responds C3 instead of F3, it looks to me like Red could go F3 then C4.

The next two you got right, nice. You forgot to answer the last one though, heh. Now for yours:

Task 7: A1 to prevent yellow from getting a diagonal below his horizontal which would make a double attack.

Task 8: Looks like D6 to block the top row.

Task 9: very nice problem!!! :neutral: First note that B1 was not an error. After White's E1, Black can get a draw with E2, D1, C1 or B1, all 4 choices are equally good. 4)-F2 was an error, and so was 5)A1, not that it matters. This problem is so great because it's so similar to another difficult position except the colors are completely reversed! It's not uncommon for White to be in the position Yellow is in, and for Black to be in the position Red is in. I had to think hard for this, but i arrived at F3 because I knew he had to threaten an odd attack on the right side otherwise easy win for White on the left side. It looked like Black's possible diagonal from B5 to E2 cancelled out White's possible open-ended horizontal from D5 to F5. I was so curious i had to check my answer, and F3 is right. But i was surprised later on when I continued the game. After 7)-F3 I made White play 8:F4, then Black 8:C1. I thought White could respond with either 9)B5 or 9)F5 to get a draw, but Vianiato says 9)D6 is the only draw move. What i hadn't noticed before was that Black gets a diagonal from D1 to F3 if not for 9)D6, Black would win on F4 with the diagonal.

Okay here's 1 problem that I took from James Allen's tutorial Expert Play in Connect Four, which is no longer on the internet. Fortunately I had posted this problem on a forum before so I still have it. It's known simply as "Problem E".
Difficulty: Very Hard
1) D1 - E1
2) A1 - C1
3) E2 - E3
4) C2 - C3
5) C4- D2
6) D3 - F1
7) E4 - B1
Red to move. Does Black win? If not, where must Red play, and what is the result?
Image
fstal86 aka div0ckrehnee aka entr0py aka Frank :)
User avatar
Zugswang
Senior Member
Senior Member
 
Posts: 43
Joined: 02 Jan 2007, 06:07
Location: near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Project connect

Postby Teachme2play » 11 Dec 2007, 16:54

It's G1, isn't it? And since that makes a mirrorable (is it a correct word?) position; I'm almost sure that it leads to a draw.

I wonder if that tutorial you were speaking about is no longer on the internet. I remember reading a very long tut. about 1-2 months ago. Was that it?

I suggest a new way of pointing mistakes alike (but not the same) in chess:
:arrow: let "??" mean that from a winning position player made a move which enables his opponent to win. ("two grades down")
:arrow: let "?" mean, that from a winning position player made a move, which enables his opponent reach the draw, or from a draw position - to a loss. ("one grade down")
:arrow: let "!" mean a move that leads to a draw, when your opponent made a "?" mistake. ("one grade up")
:arrow: let "!!" mean a move that leads to a win, when your opponent made a "??" mistake. ("two grades up")

Task #9
1. A1?? - A2?? (that's back to normal - reds can win again, because yellows lost their chance)
2. D1 - D2
3. D3 - C1
4. C2 - C3
5. D4? - D5!
6. C4 - G1
7. G2 - G3

Image

Where red can reach the draw now? I think the difficulty of it is medium.
This is 10% luck,
20% skill,
15% concentrated power of will,
5% pleasure,
50% pain,
and a 100% reason to remember the game!
User avatar
Teachme2play
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 82
Joined: 04 Mar 2007, 13:48
Location: Poland

Re: Project connect

Postby Zugswang » 11 Dec 2007, 17:35

Nice job with G1, and yes draw. And i don't know if mirrorable is a word, u could just say symmetrical :razz: There are plenty of symmetrical positions that are wins, though.

Ohhh I think before there were 2 locations of the tutorial, now there is only 1. It's http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/c4.html

The other long one is Victor Allis' thesis: http://www.connectfour.net/Files/connect4.pdf. And then there is mine, which is my profile's homepage :D
fstal86 aka div0ckrehnee aka entr0py aka Frank :)
User avatar
Zugswang
Senior Member
Senior Member
 
Posts: 43
Joined: 02 Jan 2007, 06:07
Location: near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Project connect

Postby Teachme2play » 13 Dec 2007, 21:03

Hey, Zug, don't you have time to think about the last task? Cause I won't believe it's too hard 4 u. :P
This is 10% luck,
20% skill,
15% concentrated power of will,
5% pleasure,
50% pain,
and a 100% reason to remember the game!
User avatar
Teachme2play
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 82
Joined: 04 Mar 2007, 13:48
Location: Poland

Re: Project connect

Postby Zugswang » 13 Dec 2007, 21:19

lol oops i forgot you put another task, lol i'll look into it later today.

But you still have to do task #5 by me :p

And you have to register for the tournament, each site needs at least 5 players to form a team. Just play in it, you say you're not good but i don't believe it, hehe and besides it doesn't matter if we lose :D I already know i'm gonna lose :joy:
fstal86 aka div0ckrehnee aka entr0py aka Frank :)
User avatar
Zugswang
Senior Member
Senior Member
 
Posts: 43
Joined: 02 Jan 2007, 06:07
Location: near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Project connect

Postby Zugswang » 14 Dec 2007, 02:53

E1 because it not only blocks the diagonal, it forces yellow to block red's attack and therefore allows red to also block D6 later. Whereas D6 right away would not force yellow to do anything, and yellow could get the diagonal and win.

EDIT: ah i just checked, i didn't notice red's possible diagonal from D1 to G4 which prevents Yellow from moving to E1. So E1 isn't the only answer afterall. D6 and A3 are also good. A3 is in the category of what i call a "delay" move, it doesn't directly contribute to the draw, it just delays D6 for a few moves later (by making Yellow block). Whereas the reverse isn't true: if you go D6, A3 won't be necessary because D6 already earned the draw.

And your new notation is simple yet brilliant! :idea: :neutral: , i will use it and in fact i'll even mention it to Mr. Allen, he might find it useful also. You might have just invented the official notation for connect four 8) what do you think it should be called? "Connect Four Notation"? Or you could call it your last name and you would be famous lol. If I use it for what i write, i'll acknowledge you, and i'm sure Allen will too if he uses it.

probably sometime tomorrow i'll have some more problems
fstal86 aka div0ckrehnee aka entr0py aka Frank :)
User avatar
Zugswang
Senior Member
Senior Member
 
Posts: 43
Joined: 02 Jan 2007, 06:07
Location: near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Project connect

Postby Teachme2play » 14 Dec 2007, 09:20

Hehe, you've passed the sincerity test, although your answer is incomplete. To be frank, every move leads to a draw, except for F1. ;)
And notation? I think it's just a... notation! :) I've been playing, and reading books concerning chess & chess strategy, so chess notation is familiar to me. So i upgraded it a little for the needs of c4.
Tournament? Why not, as long it isn't same, old, cruel, raw 7x6.
This is 10% luck,
20% skill,
15% concentrated power of will,
5% pleasure,
50% pain,
and a 100% reason to remember the game!
User avatar
Teachme2play
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 82
Joined: 04 Mar 2007, 13:48
Location: Poland

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron